if youre happy being right, then you get both. though it is mutually exclusive for many people. well, as right as one can be. we’re probably all far from the truth, though religious idiots much farther than us.
personally, just to avoid confusion, i am an agnostic with limited spiritual/deist tendencies. i vehemently oppose organized religion and reject the concepts of personal, intelligent, interventing, rulemaking deities.
a christian or muslim may be wrong factually, but theres no punishment for being wrong. you can still be religious and have a great social life. religion wont put you at a disadvantage financially.
you discover theres no god? then what? you may right. but wheres your reward? nowhere. you think youre right, and thats your reward, but everybody has the satisfaction in thinking their right (or less wrong than their neighbor).
pascals wager is a good argument if you want to increase your confidence in your religion and be happier. it does not prove however that your religion is correct, or that you have a higher chance of being right than anyone else.
religion and rationality are irreconcilable. we know all the arguments already on why religion is wrong, and the people who need to hear them wont listen.
will i turn to god? i think that i wont but who knows. when i was younger and mildly religious, i never thought i would denounce the christain god. but why fear it? if i do, i dont receive any punishment, and if i were genuinely religious, i’d be no less confident or happy as i am now. maybe on my death bed (as irrational as it is), i’ll convert. no harm to me.
i actually tested myself in 2009. i needed to know how strong-willed i was or if i was easily swayed to any side that i listened to. i promised myself i would be open minded and develop extensive relationships with religious figures and read religious texts extensively, just to test how durable i am. i must confess, i was somewhat close to converting to christianity, but i eventually returned to what i am.
i’m not worried about what is beyond life (or what is not beyond life). but for now, im just focused on life.
can you agree, or at least sympathize for my position, xan?
Xan says:
Yes, I can.
Though, I do disagree with you on some points: religious people do suffer financially for their religion. If all the funds wasted on churches and religious wars had been used for improvement of the human condition….
And, I do not agree that everyone can be happier being religious. Some people will be tormented by feelings of inadequacy – of not being able to live up to their god’s demands….so ‘believing in a religion’ does not necessarily make people happier. Sure, it makes some people happy – but certainly not all!
As for Pascal’s wager: if you ‘choose’ to believe – how do you know you have picked the right god? In other words, it only works (badly, but, you know what I mean) for societies where there is only one religion….or for people who cannot conceive of multiple religions. Pascal may say it is ‘safer to believe’ – but not in which God! And betting on the ‘wrong’ God is just as bad as betting on ‘no God’.
Of course, I sympathize with your assertion that you cannot know what future experiences will hold – and if any of them would be capable of changing you into some sort of a believer. I consider this to be a very wise position.
i agree of the irrationality of pascal’s wager. i already knew how lopsided a belief that it is either your god or no god is. theres at least a thousand religions, so even if pascal’s wager, your chance is 1/1000. as i said, pascals wager is NOT a sufficient or logical argument. but its rather a way of lying to yourself to increase your confidence.
there are some people who have quit drinking, smoking, and gambling, because they “found god”, so sometimes religion is the lesser of two evils.
and we are on the same page as religion does not help everybody. i’m mainly referring to people who personally believe, rather than being forced by one’s parents.
many times people see non-belief in god and happiness as
mutually exclusive. for some people religion really works for them, and some atheists can’t handle a lack of god. i was one of the few people who was made unhappy by religion. being constantly watched made me very paranoid and guilty. though i developed morals and ethics which come from genuine concern rather than blindfolded fear.
my life is mine, i have no controller. how relieving.
Xanthippa's Chamberpot 
May 18, 2011 at 00:09
it depends: do you want to be right or happy?
if youre happy being right, then you get both. though it is mutually exclusive for many people. well, as right as one can be. we’re probably all far from the truth, though religious idiots much farther than us.
personally, just to avoid confusion, i am an agnostic with limited spiritual/deist tendencies. i vehemently oppose organized religion and reject the concepts of personal, intelligent, interventing, rulemaking deities.
a christian or muslim may be wrong factually, but theres no punishment for being wrong. you can still be religious and have a great social life. religion wont put you at a disadvantage financially.
you discover theres no god? then what? you may right. but wheres your reward? nowhere. you think youre right, and thats your reward, but everybody has the satisfaction in thinking their right (or less wrong than their neighbor).
pascals wager is a good argument if you want to increase your confidence in your religion and be happier. it does not prove however that your religion is correct, or that you have a higher chance of being right than anyone else.
religion and rationality are irreconcilable. we know all the arguments already on why religion is wrong, and the people who need to hear them wont listen.
will i turn to god? i think that i wont but who knows. when i was younger and mildly religious, i never thought i would denounce the christain god. but why fear it? if i do, i dont receive any punishment, and if i were genuinely religious, i’d be no less confident or happy as i am now. maybe on my death bed (as irrational as it is), i’ll convert. no harm to me.
i actually tested myself in 2009. i needed to know how strong-willed i was or if i was easily swayed to any side that i listened to. i promised myself i would be open minded and develop extensive relationships with religious figures and read religious texts extensively, just to test how durable i am. i must confess, i was somewhat close to converting to christianity, but i eventually returned to what i am.
i’m not worried about what is beyond life (or what is not beyond life). but for now, im just focused on life.
can you agree, or at least sympathize for my position, xan?
Xan says:
Yes, I can.
Though, I do disagree with you on some points: religious people do suffer financially for their religion. If all the funds wasted on churches and religious wars had been used for improvement of the human condition….
And, I do not agree that everyone can be happier being religious. Some people will be tormented by feelings of inadequacy – of not being able to live up to their god’s demands….so ‘believing in a religion’ does not necessarily make people happier. Sure, it makes some people happy – but certainly not all!
As for Pascal’s wager: if you ‘choose’ to believe – how do you know you have picked the right god? In other words, it only works (badly, but, you know what I mean) for societies where there is only one religion….or for people who cannot conceive of multiple religions. Pascal may say it is ‘safer to believe’ – but not in which God! And betting on the ‘wrong’ God is just as bad as betting on ‘no God’.
Of course, I sympathize with your assertion that you cannot know what future experiences will hold – and if any of them would be capable of changing you into some sort of a believer. I consider this to be a very wise position.
May 19, 2011 at 23:41
i agree of the irrationality of pascal’s wager. i already knew how lopsided a belief that it is either your god or no god is. theres at least a thousand religions, so even if pascal’s wager, your chance is 1/1000. as i said, pascals wager is NOT a sufficient or logical argument. but its rather a way of lying to yourself to increase your confidence.
there are some people who have quit drinking, smoking, and gambling, because they “found god”, so sometimes religion is the lesser of two evils.
and we are on the same page as religion does not help everybody. i’m mainly referring to people who personally believe, rather than being forced by one’s parents.
many times people see non-belief in god and happiness as
mutually exclusive. for some people religion really works for them, and some atheists can’t handle a lack of god. i was one of the few people who was made unhappy by religion. being constantly watched made me very paranoid and guilty. though i developed morals and ethics which come from genuine concern rather than blindfolded fear.
my life is mine, i have no controller. how relieving.
Xan says:
Yes!