That was a question CodeSlinger asked me.
I replied in a comprehensive manner, explaining my reasoning: but thought it worthy of a post of its own. So, here it is:
I really, really don’t know that I would have them do anything other than what they are doing now.
The Israelis are in a very, very difficult position: the UN is stacked with anti-Semites, the Europeans are afraid to upset their anti-Semitic Islamist colonists (and yes – the Muslims who are true immigrants are integrating as best as they can – it is the Islamists who are entering Europe who are colonists, not immigrants who are preventing them), and the US is more anti-Semitic than ever. It seems that Canada is the only major ally of Israel – and we are small potatoes on the world stage.
So, the Israelis are stuck in a highly unenviable situation.
Israeli civilians are bombarded by rockets fired from Hospitals and UN schools within Gaza. It is only because of their investment in bomb shelters that the Israeli casualties are minimal.
But, the Hamas ruled Gazans have taken billions in ‘humanitarian aid’ and instead of bomb shelters and the equivalent to the iron dome, they built underground tunnels into Israel, often undermining kindergartens as particular targets in order to add shock value to their anticipated attack during a Jewish holiday. They have even worked several hundred Gazan children to death in mining these tunnels…
The Israelis MUST do something to primarily stop these tunnels which are extensive and through which Gazans dressed in Israeli military uniforms have snuck into Isrel and murdered people, secondarily to stop the rocket fire because a civilian population cannot indefinitely function under such conditions.
But, if the Israelis do not take extreme care to do what they are doing – dropping leaflets to warn people, phoning them to let them know an attack is coming, sending a harmless, warning shot against a building with enough time for civilians to evacuate before the real missile which will demolish the building is fired, if they did not call off air strikes when children are in the target area….they would be sinking beneath their own level of civilization!!!
After all, some of these Gazans may have voted in Hamas, but others did not and the children, of course, are innocent. Brainwashed – yes, but killing them would be barbaric. Israelis would be abandoning their own civilized state – not in the past, but now.
But if this were not a sufficient reason, if you wanted a purely pragmatic one, I can supply one of those as well.
Israel cannot survive if the whole world – with the exception of Canada and a few other little nations, like the Czech Republic – refuses to trade with them and completely isolates them.
And every dead Palestinian child – whether killed by Israeli weapons or by Palestinian rockets aimed at Israel and accidentally landing in Gaza – is a source of money for Hamas. So, Hamas will make sure that each and every real and imagined dead Palestinian child makes headlines. (And, yes – they have been caught not only passing off scenes from a horror movie as ‘Palestinian children killed by Israel’ – but also passing the photographs of the Isaeli Fogel children(including a suckling infant) who were murdered by a Palestinian terrorists as they slept in their beds, these too are being passed off as ‘Palestinian children killed by the Israelis’!!!
The Israelis – both Jewish and non-Jewish – may have much going for them, but they are a tiny country surrounded by nation states that share an ideological imperative to destroy Israel as a State AND to kill every Jew alive on this tiny little planet. And if the Jews pack up and colonize another planet, the Islamists will follow them to that planet nd try to murder them there.
Because their desire to kill every Jew in general and destroy Israel in particular is dogmatic, rooted both in the Koran and in the Hadith.
The Islamic prophet Muhammad had sheltered with both Jewish and Christian communities while he was, for reasons not known to history, excommunicated from Mecca. Both the Jewish and the Christian communities excommunicated him in their turn, also for reasons unknown. At least, that is what I was taught at Carleton University many decades ago when I took a course on Arab history.
While with the ‘People of the Book’ (Christians and Muslims), he learned a lot of their mythology. In particular, he latched on to the idea that the Jews had been God’s chosen people – which is why all the Old Testament killing and raping and genocide to get the Jews their ‘promised land’ was OK. God was fine with genocide – as long as the genociders were God’s ‘chosen people’. But, according to Muhammad, the Jews got too comfortable and broke their covenant with God (the whole Jesus thing, money-changers in the Temple and all that stuff) – which is why God punished them by kicking them out of the magical promised land, Israel.
Because, if Israel is ‘the promised land’, then only God’s chosen people get to live there – right?
And, the punishment that Muhammed is said for God to have inflicted on the Jews – to prove they were no longer his favourite people – was to deny them a homeland at all. As in – no matter where the Jews would have set up their new nation state, it would have made Muhammed wrong for saying they will never have a homeland as divine punishment. That is, the moment the Jews have a nation state of their own, Muhammed is proven wrong and all of Islam is proven to be a false religion…
But, setting it up in the promised land is an order of magnitude worse, because that is reserved for God’s favourites. And if the Jews get a homeland there, that means that they ARE God’s favourites…which means the Muslims are not, which means that Islam is not 100% correct….which it claims to be, so if one part is falsified, then all of it is….which is why them Jews have got to be kept out of Israel.
As do the Christians and everybody else.
Because if the Muslims are not God’s favourite people, then their whole religion is proven to be false…
So, now that we know why only the Muslims may live in Israel, we get to the secondary reason: all the Jews, including children, must be killed.
Because the Koran says that only when all the Jews are exterminated will the day of judgment (and paradise on Earth) take place.
So, you see, the Palestinian Islamists have very logical reasons for not wanting peace with Israel:
1) More dead Palestinian babies = more money for Hamas
2) Permitting Jews in ‘the promised land’ would bestow the title of ‘God’s favourite people’ on them and not Muslims, falsifying Islam
3) Killing all the Jews will bring Paradise to Earth and ought to be accelerated
Thus, Israel has no hope of a peace treaty with Hamas.
If Israel acts as any other country would to protect its people, the international community (weighted by Muslim and Islamist-fearing State votes) will destroy it through isolation.
Therefore, doing what they are doing now – pursuing their objectives while taking every possible precaution to save civilian lives is the only reasonable course of action open to the Israelis.
August 12, 2014 at 13:55
The idea that the Jews are universally hated and persecuted to the brink of extinction is simply false. People are getting fed up with Zionists, and the Western media (largely controlled by Jews) stridently claims that to be anti-Zionist is to be anti-Jewish.
But it isn’t.
The rockets fired from Gaza are little better than firecrackers. The best of them, the Qassam 3, is impossible to aim and has a range of only 10 miles; in almost all of Israel, these rockets pose no danger whatsoever. They amount to nothing more than a desperate gesture of impotent defiance in the face of the vastly superior firepower of the IDF.
You are very right that Israel has no hope of a peace treaty. Nothing anyone can do will stop the Palestinians from hating the Jews, and the feeling is mutual; always has been, always will be.
As long as there are Palestinians in Gaza, there will be tunnels and there will be rockets. And whatever else they can think of to retaliate against the Jews who took their land.
As long as there are Palestinians in Gaza, there will be suffering and there will be death. And yes, a fair amount of it is inflicted by Hamas, either as part of the war effort or for propaganda purposes. But whatever we make of that, the fact remains that the suffering and death will go on as long as there are Palestinians in Gaza.
That is why the only way for Israel to end this is to make suret there are no Palestinians in Gaza.
That is within their capabilities, but continuing to do what they are doing now is not a viable option.
Doing what they are doing now is precisely what the rest of the world is getting increasingly sick and tired of. If they keep it up, global public opinion will continue to swing against them until the bulk of the people really do start hating Jews. And when that happens, the Israeli lobby will lose control of Washington and Israel really will be on its own.
The Israelis are strong and the Palestinians are weak, and the cultural Marxist world view paints the strong one as the oppressor. Therefore the Israelis cannot win the propaganda war. The longer they drag out the conflict, the worse they will look in the eyes of the world.
The Israelis in Gaza are making the same mistake as the Americans in Afghanistan. They are trying to fight a war humanely. Sounds good, to the naïve, but let’s face facts.
There is no humane way to wage war.
You can be merciful, but only if you win. The only way to be merciful in war is to decimate your enemy so quickly and decisively that no resurgence of conflict is possible. This does not minimize casualties (often, quite the contrary) but it does minimize suffering.
The combination of stubbornness and squeamishness exhibited by the politically correct West, including Israel, has the paradoxical result of maximizing suffering.
So. Either you fight to win, or you’re better off to run away.
But the Israelis are doing neither, and therein lies the problem.
Continuing to do what they are doing now can have only one outcome: they will squander their current position of strength and ultimately come to ruin.
August 12, 2014 at 14:38
While I agree with some of what you say, I disagree most vociferously with some other bits.
Like that the Israeli lobby has some amount of control over Washington: it most certainly does not. Washington is thoroughly anti-Zionist. If anyone controls Washington behind the scenes, it is the Muslim Brotherhood.
Sure, the Zionists had influence – but times have changed.
Nor does the Zionist movement have control over media. Sure, there is some Jewish control of media, but many American and Western Jews are thoroughly self-hating and progressives…and as such, not just anti-Zionists, but ironically, downright anti-Semitic. This results in the media in our Western world having a very strong and aggressive anti-Semitic as well as anti-Zionist bias.
There has never, ever, been a ‘Palestinian Arab/Muslim State’ – it is a propagandist invention of Araft and his ilk. As such, there is no ‘Arabic Palestine’ to free – and nowhere for the ‘Palestinians’ to go, as none of their Arabic neighbours will accept them, permit them to integrate, or help them in any way. The only way to remove them from Gaza would be genocide – and that is clearly NOT an option.
By the way – an external enemy cannot, by definition, ‘decimate’ an enemy: that is an internal punishment for cowardice.
August 12, 2014 at 17:08
You’re right, there has never been a formal Palestinian State. When I speak of Palestinians, I mean the people who lived in the territory now claimed by Israel, before the Jews moved in and took it from them, starting right after the first world war. Prior to that, that land was passed back and forth between the Christians and the Muslims for the bulk of the last two thousand years. Prior to that, it was held by the Romans for a while.
In all that time, the Jews had no claim to that land; not since the time of Christ, give or take a hundred years or so. Therefore their current claim is based on the same foundation as that of the Romans, the Christians and the Muslims: they took the land by force and they have the ability to defend it.
That is a valid basis for a claim. Indeed, it is the same basis on which all modern nations claim sovereignty over their territory. Nobody in the world, for the last several thousand years at least, has ever held land they didn’t take by force from someone who was there before them.
The loss of influence Zionists are experiencing is quite real. But it is not due to any self-hatred or loss of wealth or power by Jews in the West.
It is due to the fact that wealthy, powerful Western Jews are just as appalled as everyone else by how the Zionists are conducting themselves with regard to the Palestinians. And rightly so.
That is my whole point.
August 12, 2014 at 21:45
I quite agree with your assessment of what constitutes a legitimate claim to a land. So far, we are in agreement.
However, it is highly inaccurate to state that Jews moved into Palestine and took it from the Palestinians. Nothing could be further from the truth!
First of all, the term ‘Palestinian’ used to be applied to Jews – and did not alter its meaning to designat ‘Arabs living in Palestine’ until rather recently. Let’s not forget that and now look back at historical documents from pre-WWII era, reading them with the correct interpretation of the word ‘Palestinian’.
Second, the Jews moving into Palestine between the world wars did not ‘take’ anything from anyone – but they DID purchase land from its legal owners and settled on it. Nobody ‘took’ or ‘stole’ anything and suggesting it is so is simply historically wrong.
Again, as a vocal Zionist myself, I quite disagree with you analysis of the public opinion of Zionism…
August 13, 2014 at 17:57
I’m on Israel’s side in this, but for completely secular reasons.
My point is very simple: as long as they remain too squeamish to finish their enemies quickly and cleanly, they cannot avoid appearing dishonourable and cruel.
The resulting – inevitable! – propaganda defeat will destroy Israel much more surely than any military attack the Muslim world could ever hope to mount.
The only possible answer is to forcibly deport the Palestinians (I won’t argue the name – we both know who I mean).
Egypt and Jordan don’t want them. But so what? If Israel said, “take them or we kill them,” Egypt and Jordan would have no choice but to take them.
The world would be shocked – outraged! But so what? The outrage would pass.
Unlike the current situation, which invites outrage every single day – outrage that will continue to mount until the whole world – Jews and all – turns its back on Israel.
Is that really preferable to putting an end to it once and for all?
I think not.
August 13, 2014 at 19:39
Ah, CodeSlinger, this is where I think you are wrong!
“Egypt and Jordan don’t want them. But so what? If Israel said, “take them or we kill them,” Egypt and Jordan would have no choice but to take them.”
No – they would NOT take them.
They would much rather see them all dead than permit them to enter their countries.
There are two reasons for this: in the past, when Lebanon took some Palestinians in, they fomented internal strife and armed insurrection. After this, no other Arab land will permit ‘Palestinians’ into their countries. Why else do you think Egypt blocaded Gaza and flooded their smuggling tunnels with raw sewage? The Gazans chose to vote Hamas into power – and Hamas, though it is supported heavily by Iran, is primarily a creature of the Ikhwan, the Muslim Brotherhood.
And no sane country will willingly accept MB terrorists into its territory. Egypt and Jordan certainly will not!
The second reason is that despite their hate of the Gazans, having Israel kill Arabs is good propaganda for other Arabic and Islamic countries. It makes Israel-bashing easier. So, if the Israelis said “take them or we’ll kill them”, they would rejoice in having cornered the Israelis into either backing down and loosing honour or killing the hated Muslim Brotherhood allies.
And despite the current propaganda against Israel, they do NOT want to kill civilians, regardless of their political leanings.
Thus, Israel cannot just ‘remove’ the Gazans.
Bernie from Planck’s Constant has also suggested that removing the Gazans would be the most preferred solution. Here he suggests Israel buy them a ‘New Gaza’ somewhere in Africa.
Here he suggests it would be cheaper for Israel to buy every single Gazan a ticket to Fiji and a permanent holiday for the rest of their lives than to continue in this war.
But I am not certain that this would work.
Just as the Deobandi school of Islam was defined by fighting against British colonization – and has resulted in deeply anti-British sentiments in most of the Deobandi Muslims living in the UK, so the Gazans define themselves, both philosophically and theologically, as opposing Jewish residency in Israel. So, no matter where they would be sent, how much of luxury they would live in, they would loose their identity if they stopped trying to destroy Israel.
But, say I grant you that, through some miracle, the whole world community came together and relocated all the Gazans and West Bank ‘Palestinians’ in a country as big as Texas and gave them seed money to get started running their country smoothly and comfortably. They have a country of their own, more and better land than before, excellent accommodations, functional business, great schools and hospitals and lots of money for each individual. Magically done!
It would still not resolve the problem of Israel existing a) at all, and b) especially in the ‘Holy Land’.
Because if Israelis have a country of their own, Islam is falsified.
And if they not only have a country of their own, but have it in the ‘Holy Land’, then Islam is both falsified and humiliated.
Because Mohammad said that because Jews are being punished by Allah, they CANNOT have a country of their own – so if they DO get one, then Muhammad is wrong and saying Muhammad is wrong is an insult even worse than calling him a peodophile or naming a teddy bear after him or drawing a picture of him….
August 14, 2014 at 22:26
Well, if you’re right, and Israel cannot rid itself of the Palestinians, then Israel will lose.
That’s why I’m so doggedly looking for a way to get rid of them.
People see dead children in Gaza and they blame Israel – despite the part Hamas plays in killing them. People blame Israel for that, too.
Critical theory – political correctness – always blames the stronger one. Whatever the stronger one does is oppression. And whatever the weaker one does is justified by the oppression.
Israel is strong, and the Palestinians are weak. Political correctness allows only one outcome: Israel must lose.
Ironically, the inventors of political correctness – the Frankfurt School – were all Jews.
August 15, 2014 at 21:31
Yes, CodeSlinger, I do see the irony!!!
Obama has denied Israel the previously scheduled arms shipments…that is bad, very, very bad.
On the other hand, Hamas stopped the rocket fire during the latest ceasefire – which suggests that it is militarily exhausted enough to need a break in fighting in order to re-put itself together (excuse the language – long, exhausting day….words are not popping into my head as I’d like them to), re-build and re-arm.
This suggests Hamas is currently weak.
Which presents an opportunity to Gazan seculars/non-terrorists, if you will, if they are not too cowed already, to reclaim governance over their little enclave from Hamas.
But, even if they DID – and that is not very likely – there is a wild joker in this deck.
I speak of no other than IS – the Islamic State, formerly known as ISIS or ISIL – the new Caliphate.
Having an active Caliph is a game-changer for every believing Muslim in the world – something that is more important than most of us Westerners realize and something I plan to blog about tonight.
August 15, 2014 at 22:54
Wow! What an interesting read this has been, following the two of you through your online debate. I would simply like to add 2 bits of input to this thread…
1) Thank You so much for keeping the debate “civil”. It is very refreshing to see it has not degenerated into foul mouth name calling the way many other news comment threads do online.
2) I have an alternative suggestion for solving this seemingly intractable problem…. Instead of proposing to move all the Gazan Palestinians to a new piece of land (and even if you did do this, what about the other Palestinians living on the West Bank?) why don’t we (“we” being the USA, Canada, and any other ‘ally’ that are supposed to be supporting Israel) try to convince the Israeli government and population that it is in THEIR BEST INTEREST to get up and move their whole country to some other part of the world!! OK, so the orthodox Jews and the West Bank “settlers” probably wouldn’t care for this idea, but so what? Let them stay there; they are the ones who provoke most of the problems in that country anyway. Then the secular and moderately religious members of the country would be able to have another homeland in a part of the world where they wouldn’t necessarily be surrounded by enemies… maybe we can help them buy an island from the Philippines or from Indonesia? They have plenty of islands to spare! Or, perhaps the USA and Canada can carve out a small piece of land between Montana and Edmonton that would give them a homeland in North America…
This would leave the Islamic Palestinians with no more excuse to blame the Jews for taking “God’s chosen land” and they can then enjoy fighting amongst themselves about other things, the way they will always do. This would be a perfect way to turn back the clock on the terrible mistake the original Zionist settlers made when they started moving back to the areas around Jerusalem and Tel Aviv 70-80 years ago!
That’s my contribution to trying to solve this unsolvable problem of history… for what its worth.
August 15, 2014 at 23:24
Thank you, Eric, for your well-thought out answer.
No, let us examine its dynamics.
Israel desires a nation-state of its own. It is precisely in order to avoid another genocide that a Jewish nation-state is required.
So, let us entertain the idea that an Israeli nation-state can be created somewhere in North America.
And, let’s suppose that all the Israelis (Jewish ans Arab and otherwise) would agree to this.
What about the North American Natives?
I know Canada is having its own difficulties as multiple Indian (Native American) bands are making a claim for anything from the Parliament Hill to all the other bits of the country – and their claims are more reasonable than the ‘Palestinian’ ones were, as the ‘Palestinians’ were only renting the land from its lawful owners who then legally sold it to the Jews….
Sure, I would love this kind of a solution – I just think the logistics would be even more difficult than trying to create a national state for the Jews in their historic homeland.
But, even IF we founded an Jewish nation state outside of the Middle East, it would not change the belief among the Muslims that their Prophet said that God’s punishment of the Jews is that they are not permitted to have a nation-state of their own. Therefore, no matter where a Jewish nation-state would be established, Muslims all over the world would consider it their order to destroy it, as the very existence of an Israeli nation state is a contradiction of the ‘prophet’ Muhammed’s sayings and thus falsifies all of Islam and insults Muhammed by proving him wrong!!!
Thus, the battle would simply shift to the NEW location of Israel!!!
August 17, 2014 at 01:06
The idea has been proposed. Many times. It didn’t take.
See Wikipedia: Proposals for a Jewish state.
The Jews don’t want just any old piece of land. They want that particular piece of land.
But you’re absolutely right about the quality of the discourse around these parts. That’s why I come here.